No.6, Technology and the Other City-States

[stanza]

Our first topic of discussion was proposed by fencer_x over on tumblr:

dat world buildin’. No.6 is super technologically advanced but No.5 isn’t? Is there no data sharing? Timeline suggests they all abide by the Babylon Treaty to a point sooo?? Does no one else have a problem with No.6 or does no one else know?

I have wondered this, too! In the anime, No.6 seemed to have internet (wasn't Yoming a 'net reporter' or something along those lines) so one would think there's some worldwide communication. (Or at least the capability for it: No.6 might have a big firewall, a la PRC.) 

I think all the city-states are pretty insular (or at least self-sufficient), so it's probably a scenario where not all information is being shared with other city-states (like, you know, the part where No.6 is developing weaponry in direct violation of the Babylon Treaty). Who knows what else the Babylon Treaty stipulates apart from 'no warfare or weaponry'? Is there a clause for the prevention of dystopias??

Or you could take a super gritty, darkly realistic view of it and extrapolate from world politics: even when countries know there's shittiness going on outside their borders, the options for resolving the situation are limited and not always effective. But I would err more on the side of outright ignorance, given that No.6 has study abroad programs in partnership with other city-states* for its elite students. (*No.5 at least; maybe everyone else is sanctioning the hell out of No.6 and No.5 is the hold out.)

Comments

[myram]

I think the study abroad program was for Safu only, to cover up her kidnapping. After all, no one would miss her if she disappeared because she wasn't supposed to be there for 2 years anyway (I'm pretty sure the novel mentioned something like that.)

No.6 also hold a very strict control over it's citizens, so the studying abroad was very Ooc to begin with.

Back on Topic. I'm pretty sure that at least some city states suspected that something fishy was going on in No.6. (you can't just ignore the rules of "barely any visitors" and not suspect they're hiding something, and there is also the question as to were they based newly found research and discoveries on)
So I'll go with ignorance and dark realistic view. It happens in our world Atm, and I think it suits the story.

[stanza]

Ohhh that's a good point. Then again, that seems like a lot of effort to go through for an excuse...although who knows what effort qualifies as a lot when you're researching bee gods, right.

I agree, really weird and doesn't really make sense unless yeah, you go with your premise above that it was a very elaborate setup for Safu's kidnapping.

you can't just ignore the rules of "barely any visitors" and not suspect they're hiding something, and there is also the question as to were they based newly found research and discoveries on

That's assuming there ARE lot of, you know, tourists and immigration and general international activity like that. Which -- can we assume that?? I don't know! Would they be sharing their research/discoveries that come from the uh bee god field? I mean No.6 is supposed to be the 'model' city-state and the most advanced, but I dunno if all/most of those advancements are direct symptoms of the dystopic elements (like genocide and human experimentation). Hmmmm.

But yeah I mean I could easily buy a scenario where other city-states knew/suspected SOMETHING was off and just -- didn't have the means/willingness to really make an international issue out of it.

[adamantine]

Popping into say that instead of internet No.6 might have intranet. Which would be an internet like network but only accessible to those in No.6, so it could be strictly controlled but still give the illusion of free-flowing information.

[analineblue]

Hmm, yeah, I think in my head I've always assumed that No.6 is kind of a rogue state compared to the others... Somewhere like, IDK, Libya or Syria now, where everyone around the "world" knows there's unrest and/or shoddy leadership, or maybe it's even as extreme as somewhere like North Korea - where there's information available sort of peripherally, but it's so isolated that no one is ever really able to confirm anything. I think in my head, when I think of what No. 6 looks like from the outside, I imagine some weird mash-up of all those places, or what I imagine those places must be like from my limited following of international news. *nod* Not that this is in any way accurate, really? :P

As as for post-series, I think after the fall/ruin of the city, I see it as kind of...how we would end up seeing a failed state halfway across the world now - things come out, and it's on the news, and we may end up sending someone over to report on it, etc. But... Still kind of removed.

But the study-abroad part with Safu has always confused me, I have to admit. XD; Because it does seem really odd that they would send their elite elsewhere to study, where they could potentially share what seems like sensitive information about the structure/governance of the city, etc. O_o

[annamirka]

Was there anything in the novels to suggest that the other city states were markedly less technologically advanced?


"No. 6 had top-notch terminal care. Some said that no other city could compare." (ch 12)

"No. 6, where the man lived, was a city of light. It sparkled and brimmed with it, regardless of whether it was day or night. Light wasn't the only thing he had access to freely: thanks to leaps in biotechnology, a steady supply of food was always available, independent of seasonal or weather conditions, and he had access to any manner of foodstuffs. It was the same with energy supply. As long as they were inside the city, people were able to lead an abundant, secure and hygienic life. Apart from them, there were five other city-states in the world, but no other place had an environment as perfect as theirs. This was the reason behind No. 6's second name of the Holy City."(ch 16)

"No. 6 was situated in a considerably more favourable environment compared to the other five cities." (ch 19)

I can't remember other pieces...

[storia_dystopia]

Okay, I think a big problem in this matter is to decide on a premise to work on, since we've got three different types of media: The novel, the manga and the anime.
Up until this point the manga is almost exactly like the novel, perhaps a little less detailed but it's still similar enough that I see novel and manga as a thematic unit.
But then there's the anime, which is obviously different. My take on the whole thing was up until now to see those two medias as some sort of complement to each other, because while the novel obviously was there first and thus could be considered more important, I think that at least until the infiltration of the correctional facility those two different takes don't contradict each other.
In the novel, for example, Safu only says she's going of to another city, without clarifying which one that is exactly, while the anime declares it's No.5.
It's the same with twilight manor. In the novel it's only hinted really subtly that something fishy is going on there, while Safu doesn't suspect anything at all, but in the anime the scene where Safu goes and collects the glasses of her grandmother and notices there has to be something wrong was one of the most creepiest for me, thus really important for showing how dangerous No.6 was.
I know I'm kindly degressing, since hell, one could spent 10k+ words on pointing out the differences from the novel and the anime, how they complement and contradict each other, but I simply wanted to say that this combinement of both versions, where I choose the novel over the anime if there really is a contradiction (Shion dying in the correctional facility, Hamlet staying instead of Tsukiyo, etc.) is the premises I reason under.
Okay, and now on to the real topic:
Yeah, the exchange program is kinda strange, but I agree with tastypirate, I think that No.6 is really confident in it's abilities to brainwash people. After all they've taught Safu for 14 years, everyday of her life she's been under their influence and I think they're certain their influence on every student is strong enough to keep them from saying anything that might hurt No.6.
And for it to be a ploy specifically developed to make Safu vanish secrectly sounds a little unlikely to me, since wouldn't it draw even more attention to her if she was the only one to be accepted and then would never come back? And why didn't they capture her right away, that night she was supposed to leave but instead had her come back?
I think as well that she fell victim to the 'lab coat' (don't know his real name yet) demanding living, female samples from Fennec, and that happened after Safu had already been sent abroad, in the novel at least.

And for the concern of other cities: I agree that it's the most likely that they knew or suspected something, but didn't care enough to really take any action. After all in the anime it looks like No.6 is pretty much located in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by desert/wasteland. Perhaps the other cities were like 'It's cut of anyway, so it won't become a threat for us, why should we care?'.
And I'm not even sure if No.6 is that closed of to tourism. In the anime the elderly woman who recognized Safu as a No.6 citizen said she knew because everyone else who came to No.6 was confused by the strict control through the ID's. That sounded to me as if No.6 really did allow tourism, but only with precautionary measures.

And I think that tourism wasn't even such a threat for No.6, since they were pretty good in hiding all of their dystopian traits. After all everyone seemed happy, they even had old ladies to check on anyone who might not, to have them removed and they could perfectly argue with safety if any tourist might find the constant tracking through ID's strange.

But I think indeed that the net was a No.6 only intranet, so that the government had the perfect control over it.
And I think Yoming's written guide was supposed to be for No.6 citizens rather than for tourist's.

On a side note: Can anyone please tell me how to use cuts in comments? I'm kinda new to this whole journal-thing, and as you can see I tend to produce real word-monsters while rambling, but I seem to be to stupid for finding out where to edit the HTML of my comment. Or isn't that possible at all?

[annamirka]

It's the same with twilight manor. In the novel it's only hinted really subtly that something fishy is going on there, while Safu doesn't suspect anything at all, but in the anime the scene where Safu goes and collects the glasses of her grandmother and notices there has to be something wrong was one of the most creepiest for me, thus really important for showing how dangerous No.6 was.
Actually in the novel is stated elderly people are drugged and killed right after they reach Twilight Cottage. I wonder if the Twilight Cottage exists at all or they are brought in a place like the correctional facility where dispose of corpses would be much easier, since in chapter 12 is stated citizens didn't know the ubication of the cottage...

[storia_dystopia]

Oh seriously? Is it said somewhere after the fourth novel or did I simply overread it? Because I remember the part about no one knowing where the Twilight Manor is, but the nurse who works there only says that no one of the elderly returns, but not that they're killed, I think...
But yeah, if it's after the fourth volume I simply haven't read that far, since I can sadly only read as much as is translated on Nostalgia on 9th-ave.
This is one of my biggest problems with arguing on the base of the novels alone: I hardly know more than half of the information that's provided by them.

[annamirka]

Actually, this information comes from a chapter already translated (the second half of Chapter 3 of 5 volume... (sorry if you're not there yet and i spoiled that for you, i beg pardon Q_Q)
"all the patients brought to the Twilight Cottage don't live out their lives and die a natural death... as soon as they've been transported, they're drugged, put to sleep, and―"
"But why do they do that to the citizens? What for?"
"Because they're useless. No. 6 is that kind of city. It's ruthless against people who are useless to it. If that person's only got his death to wait for, then why not let him go quickly and easily with drugs? Less waste that way. That's how they think."

[annamirka]

I think all the city-states are pretty insular (or at least self-sufficient), so it's probably a scenario where not all information is being shared with other city-states (like, you know, the part where No.6 is developing weaponry in direct violation of the Babylon Treaty). Who knows what else the Babylon Treaty stipulates apart from 'no warfare or weaponry'? Is there a clause for the prevention of dystopias??

The Babylon Treaty should had stipulated accords to share tecnological progression...
This is what Rikiga said about no.6 foundation: "The plan was that each city would take part in the research and development of things like safe energy that could be mass-produced to replace fossil fuels and nuclear power, and scientific technology that ranged from the nanometre to cosmic scales, in a way that was appropriate for the conditions of each city."